DPF - how bad does it get

[rodeyorks]

Hi Peter,

Just had EGR valve on my X Type 2.2 diesel replaced after issues with limp mode etc. It cost £230 for the valve and £120 labour.

Seems to be running really well now and I am going to start putting cleaner in the tank. I already use premium fuel.

Cheers

Rod

[Old Peter]

Hi Rodney,

The s type has two EGR valves so I get to pay twice as much!

Cheers,

Peter.

[Old Peter]

Hi Rodney,

Just got my quote [exact] for two EGR valves for my s type.  My mechanic got a discount on genuine Jaguar EGR valves coming in a £135 each, £50n each off the standard price of £185.

Add Labour at £150 I will pay £420.  Less than I thought.

Regards,

Peter.

[TJM]

So after many hours online last night and this morning I decided that as I have some time left on MOT I would pick the car up today from the Jaguar Specialist I am using in Leatherhead, Surrey with a plan to get the DPF cleaned by a specialist the figures seemed to be circa £500

A lengthy conversation was had on collection about DPF's generally as I was clearly not happy that the only option offered to me was replacement at £1800 and several things emerged.

1, Jaguar will apparently be offering re-conditioned DPF's as an option to brand new later this year. (Christmas time 2019 was the given time frame)

2. DPF Cleaning may actually be a worthwhile option.

3. I found 'used' Jag XF DPF's on eBay around £250 but they are obviously an unknown - specialist warned against it as he would but in the future this may be your only option - this could be an option for you to get car through an MOT perhaps.

The specialist I am using had done some homework on the subject over the past 24h and had identified a DPF cleaning company - he had also telephoned some of their clients VAG and BMW and had got positive reports on the process, he will essentially be removing the dpf from the car, the company will collect and clean it using an industrial machine and then return it the next day to be refitted.

The specialist also said that he will then update the engine management software as there is an update available for my 2014 XF and he 'expects' that this will provide some improved handling for DPF cleaning but he will only install this update after the work is complete.

This will cost me £600 inc vat which also includes the re-test and the £65 software update.

There is an option in the JLR software to tell the car that it has a new DPF but this can be dangerous if mis-used and will only happen if the DPF is essentially very very clean after the return from the specialist DPF cleaning bods.

The specialist cleaning co. will provide before and after readings on the DPF I think this is pressure readings from the fore and aft sensors so it should clear what benefit the clean has provided.

my DPF is apparently currently above 60% full but the exact figure is not known as the JLR software only shows the true figure during a regen

As I have mentioned there was NO PRIOR WARNING before this Red error - I was told this sometimes happens so JLR inbuilt XF monitoring software is clearly flawed as it really should show the an amber warning first.

The soot level 1 year ago was 0.3g but when I checked despite some long journeys the latter half of 2018 actually saw only short journeys mainly within m25/London and on A roads in sussex so my driving habits have to change.

*** For info ***
Halfords now offer a DPF cleaning service for £85 or £120 advanced - this involves removing a sensor in the front of the DPF unit and directly injecting a chemical cocktail into a dpf using a lance this will apparently breakdown the buildup and allow it to burn off - they do this several times - I wont be doing this at halfords  but mention it as its the cheapest service I found and shows just what a problem clogged DPF's have become to the UK populous.

 

I really truly believe that all JLR diesel vehicles (and indeed all other diesel vehicle manufacturers) should have their infotainment systems updated to show DPF level - this option could be hidden in the menu system so that only those owners who want it would turn it on but this really is a must - I'd want to see a % figure or at least some kind of progress bar and an indication when a DPF clean is in progress even if just a colour change on the % figure - an option to initiate a clean would just be the holy grail!

Sadly though JLR have a vested interest in keeping the software in its current infant state so they can just keep charging customers for new DPF's - the availability later this year (2019) of recon DPF's is somewhat telling but I wouldn't hold your breath for a fix for this.

Will update next week after the works are complete.

[Dom13]

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the thorough follow up and update, however, I am particularly interested to know who this Jag specialist is in Leatherhead, I live in Dorking and currently travel all the way up to Milton Keynes due to the reputation of M&K there.

How good is the place in Leatherhead and who are they?

Thanks in advance,

Dom

P.S Feel free to flash me if you see me around, I am in a 62 plate XF Sportbrake in Saphire Black (it looks black until the sun shines on it) with black wheels

[TJM]

Hi Dominic, 

Yes, It's 'Jag and Land Surrey' https://jagandlandsurrey.com/ 

Billy the owner is a sole trader and while cheaper than JLR (£65 per hour) but he is by no means ''cheap'' per se, though he does seem fairly knowledgeable.

My 'B' service with MOT this week was £559.11 inc vat, this was based on 2 hours labour £130 (£65p.h.), plus £65 for an air con service (which wasn't mentioned or agreed beforehand), plus parts.

Genuine Parts used were £225.22 - Drain Plug, Oil filter, Air filter, Pollen filter, Fuel Filter, wiper blades (£20 each), Engine Oil £66, Screen wash, Environmental disposal £4.50, Consumables £8.34 (for grease, anti-sieze spray, copperslip, WD40). He also used a Wynns Diesel cleanup (put directly neat into the new fuel filter)

It always feels like he charges for 'everything' and this sems a lot of money bearing in mind that it failed the MOT due to the engine warning light (caused by my dpf problem).

Its a free re-test when it goes back in next week but that visit will be another £570 inc vat (which is the price I have agreed with him for removing the dpf - specialist clean - refitting DPF and engine management software update).

providing this is successful this years servicing will have been just under £1200 all up. Its been about £5000 in total across the past 3 years including this year that its been going there.

In comparison my 2008 BMW 3 series (E92) is just £136 per year for servicing (every year over the past 8 years that I have owned it) its also a diesel but because it is pre-2009 it has no DPF which is golden! - all I do is put fuel in and it just works without complaint. For a 2.0 its also pretty quick and fun to drive although the run flat tyres do bugger the ride quality a bit! - I've recently had to replace a wheel and wheel bearing (pot hole damage) and all the dampers but have done these jobs myself for next to nothing as its an easy car to work on (dampers were £65 each, the new wheel was £100 from eBay rather than £460+VAT from BMW) the quote was about £1'500 from dealer so I feel quite pleased about it.

 

[Dom13]

Thanks Tim,

I will bear him in mind for emergencies, I just had my B service at M&K in Sep, it was £257 (if I remember correctly) all in.

M&K are Jag specialists and use all genuine Jag parts, they are good guys and really know what they are doing, they seem to get really good reports on here and other Jag forums.

I prefer them to the dealership as at a dealership there is only 1 master technician and a few apprentices and the vast majority of the work isn't done by the master, M&K have at least a couple of highly qualified, ex Jag dealership guys, that incidentally also have BMW qualifications (I saw the certs on the wall).

I much prefer to have enthusiastic specialist look after my cat.

If you don't mind the drive I can personally highly recommend them, they don't do unnecessary things but do check everything, after my service they advised me that the bushes on my front suspension banana arms were wearing out and explained that they could tell by slightly more wear on the insides of my front tyres, when I get round to it it will be £250 and 4 hrs work, they also provide a courtesy car (x-type) if you give them enough notice, they didn't pressure me to do it and just advised me to keep an eye on it.

My brake pads were also getting thin, again they didn't pressure me to change them, I ran them until almost finished then bought some Brembo pads and got John at Dorking tyres to fit them for me, nice guy, also a Jag enthusiast, has Jags himself and is currently restoring an E-Type, he only charges £10 a corner to change tyres.

Give M&K a call and see what they say about your situation.

Good luck and I will keep my eye out for a flashing cat.

Dom

[Dom13]

Hi Tim,

Me again, I should add, I have the 2.2 200BHP, I have done about 30'000 miles since Nov 2017 when i got it and never had any DPF issues at all.

I use Shell V-Power and every 3 fills or so I add a bottle of Wynn's Gold treatment to the tank.

Prevention is better than a cure and the cost of using a premium fuel and 2 bottles of snake Oil a month is minimal when looking at refurbing or replacing a DPF.

Dom

[TJM]

** UPDATE **

So I took the car in on Tuesday as planned for the DPF clean - it seemed like a shot in the dark but hopefully a worthwhile one.

My DPF was removed and given to a specialist cleaning company (who collected DPF from my mechanic Tuesday and returned on Thursday)

I was told that the DPF was showing at 50% full on removal from the car.

The specialist recorded a flowrate on his specialist cleaning equipment of 243 m3/hr pre-clean.

Following the clean (on a machine apparently costing about £40k) the new flowrate was 428 m3/hr. 

The DPF was deemed upon return to be completely clean (showing nothing in the official jaguar software)  so the specialist has told the car (via the jaguar software) that it has a new DPF.

Before the work this week performance of the car was very poor, the red DPF warning (remember I had recieved no yellow warning first) had essentially put the car into a limp mode with no power to speak of.

Prior to this work I had noticed there was a noticeable lag between when the right foot was pressed and the (always lovely) power delivery to the rear wheels - this was not the case when I got the car a couple of years ago when it was always a responsive throttle.

Following the work this week I collected the car today and engine performance can now be described as 'very lively' and the lag which I had noticed before is no longer evident power delivery is once again immediate.


My driving habits need to change for sure - but I am still somewhat bitter and twisted that there is absolutely no information on DPF status within the infotainment system and thus no way of knowing the state of the DPF level or when a clean is in progress even though this info is clearly known by the engine management software - seems a massive oversight on Jaguar's part but they are not alone in this.

I will have to keep you posted on DPF developments but for the moment all looking good for me right now.

I was only expecting get a degree of cleaning to get me through the MOT and I expected to have to replace the DPF sometime within the next year or so however given that its deemed now to be currently as good as new I now hope to get a bit more life than this.

Also Worthy of note is the fact that this off vehicle DPF clean can be repeated 'several times' on the same DPF - the cleaning company will advise when it can no longer be cleaned.

I don't know the company used by the specialist he is keeping this to himself but the charge for the clean on the invoice was £350 however there were 2 hours of labour for the exhaust removal and re-installation process some new exhaust gaskets and the computer stuff so the clean was for me just under £500+Vat all up =  a lot but a lot less than the £1'800+vat initially quoted for a new DPF.

This process should work for DPF on any model / age jaguar or indeed any other make with DPF issues and the clean is not vehicle specific its an industrial blast .

I will add that I have only been using shell and bp's expensive fuels this past year or so following advice on here.

I hope this info is useful to anyone else with DPF problems and i will definitely update this thread with any developments on the DPF front!

Cheers

Tim

[Old Peter]

Hi Tim,

A very useful piece of information, and well worth printing off and putting in your "useful" file.

You did mention that your driving habits must change, something which was brought to my notice from SWMBO.  Have a look at a website --  Ashford Lightfoot.  I will PM you about the Widget they have invented which does work.

Regards,

Peter

[PolarBear]

On 1/9/2019 at 2:54 PM, Dom13 said:

Thanks Tim,

I will bear him in mind for emergencies, I just had my B service at M&K in Sep, it was £257 (if I remember correctly) all in.

M&K are Jag specialists and use all genuine Jag parts, they are good guys and really know what they are doing.

Dom, do you have a link or website for M&K? The only Jaguar specialists in Milton Keynes (where I am) I can find are E&E http://www.eandeservices.biz/.

I presume you don't mean them.

Thanks, John

[Dom13]

On 1/19/2019 at 1:40 AM, PolarBear said:

Dom, do you have a link or website for M&K? The only Jaguar specialists in Milton Keynes (where I am) I can find are E&E http://www.eandeservices.biz/.

I presume you don't mean them.

Thanks, John

Sorry John,

Brain f*rt, indeed I meant E&E.

Dom

[colin hewetson]

the answer is very simple, the reason the DPF clogs up and initiates the dash warning is

a) You are probably using standard or supermarket standard diesel fuel which has hardly, if any, additives, hence the lower pricing, you should try to use non supermarket fuel and use BP or Esso premium diesel fuel which has a good additive package which cleans the injector nozzles valves and DPF

b) Diesels are not designed for short runs e.g. shopping trips or school runs. If you keep getting DPF warnings you dont need to bother with Jaguar service, just run the car up the motorway for 10/20miles at 80/90MPH and that will burn off the carbon deposits from the DPF

[Old Peter]

30 minutes ago, colin hewetson said:

the answer is very simple, the reason the DPF clogs up and initiates the dash warning is

a) You are probably using standard or supermarket standard diesel fuel which has hardly, if any, additives, hence the lower pricing, you should try to use non supermarket fuel and use BP or Esso premium diesel fuel which has a good additive package which cleans the injector nozzles valves and DPF

b) Diesels are not designed for short runs e.g. shopping trips or school runs. If you keep getting DPF warnings you dont need to bother with Jaguar service, just run the car up the motorway for 10/20miles at 80/90MPH and that will burn off the carbon deposits from the DPF

Please don't take your car up to 80 or 90 mph.  A steady run in 4th gear at 45 mph on any quick road is enough.  I do a lot of short runs with just one or two longer runs in a month and I have never had a problem with the DPF in 6 years.

Peter,

[Carpo]

I'm reading this thread with great interest as I have recently fitted an ELM327 mini unit and with the Torque App, I can view my Coolant Temperature and DPF Soot Level with the assistance of some nifty programming by a Torque Pro forum member. I've a 2014 Jaguar Sportbrake, 2.2, 200hp version, done almost 40000 miles.

What I've noticed with DPF soot level is that it goes up or down dependent on driving conditions. For example when I first got the programme showing, my soot level was 23 g/m3, but after a steady run of around 30miles (around 1500rpm) this dropped to 5g/m3. A bit of stop start and town driving then increased it up to 7g/m3 and that is where I am at the moment.

On the attached photo the car hasn't yet warmed up so the temperature is a bit low at 48C. Also my hand was a bit shaky with the camera. The top indication is the Soot Level, the bottom one Coolant Temperature 

If anyone is interested in showing these figures on an Android smartphone, pm me and I can show the links.

 

[Old Peter]

Very interesting, James.

It tells the story well, and tells you what you need to do to have  a pleasant  end to the story!

Peter.

[Pter B]

Evening all. First time post.

The DPF warning has come up on my 2009 XF and, having read the advice here, I added Archoil, filled up with V-Power and took the car for a spin along the M27 at a steady 70mph. 

However, the warning is still showing. Is there anything else I can do myself or should I now take it to a mechanic?

I've done approximately 200 miles since the warning flashed up. How close am I to it turning red?!!!

Thanks in  anticipation

Peter

PS. not had this problem with any previous Jaguars (XJ and S)

Edited October 5, 2019 by Pter B
Spelling mistake :(

[Old Peter]

Hi Peter, and Welcome to the club.

If you have a OBD2 scanner you could delete the warning message.  Sometimes the message stays on for some reason or other.

The AA/RAC could do that.

There is no restricted performance so I am guessing that the red light won't be coming on.

I think that most garages would delete the message for about £40 or less.

Regards,

Peter.

[bmcl6]

Welcome to the Club Peter, hope you manage to get your DPF problem solved.

[Pter B]

Many thanks Old Peter,

I don't have an OBD scanner, so will speak to a local mechanic.

I am a little concerned about simply deleting the warning but I guess it will reappear should the problem persist?

Thanks again

Peter

[vvgonelli]

Hello seasoned members,

I just joined XF owners,

My recent XF purchase shows Dpf full see handbook.I Followed instructions which stated drive at over 30 mph for 20 min.

Unfortunately, the road I chose had lights which stopped me before my quest was fullfilled and I guessed that I would have to restart my attempt, time being my enemy, I abandoned the quest.

I read the horrors of this Dpf alert others have had & suspect it can lead to much worse outcomes.

I regret buying this XF & feel stuck with it.

I am a retired pensioner on a tight budget & feel I cannot afford the luxury costs of putting the car to experienced persons to fix a problem which is likely to occur repeatedly due to only driving town mileage.

I shall be looking forward to reading how others resolve this problem and, hoping the car lasts long enough till someone succeeds to resolve it at low outlay.

thanks for the knowledge gained up to now.

regards.

Vincent

 

 

 

 

 

[Old Peter]

Hi Vincent snd welcome to the club.

I have had my s type 2.7 diesel for over 6 years.  I do mainly short runs and so have to be aware of what can happen to the DPF if you don't ensure that it doesn't get  full.

The problems can come from the fuel system so if you use the best quality fuel you will probably get fewer particulates getting through the filter.  And you can add to that the use of an additive on a fairly regular basis.

I also ensure that I do a longer run once a month and it is not the time you drive for, it is more often the speed which will get the particles burnt away,  If you are driving along a speed limited road you can go into the manual mode and keep the revs around 2000+rpm.

The maintenance of a diesel engine should be preventative rather than sorting it out after it has happened.

I have never had a problem or even a warning light on the DPF with my car.

Regards,

Peter.

 

[Jon Hyde]

Hi Vincent,

I totally concur with Peter, whilst also doing lots of short runs, I do make sure I have a long 'blast' every week or so, along with an occasional (3 monthly) trip to in-laws in Ireland. So far, so good!

I do make sure to always use premium diesel and a regular shot of Miller's Oil additive (discount with membership available at Halfords!).

Try not to be disheartened - the XF has many joys on offer, but do 'take it for a spin' regularly!

Best of luck,
Jon

[TJM]

Hi Vincent,

I had my DPF removed from my car last year and professionally cleaned and reinstalled and the problem has gone away for me for now - my car is rather high mileage at over 100'000 miles but is currently well behaved I havent seen the warnings in over a year now but I am a low mileage user now - I do know that I will see the problem again - its just a matter of time.

My DPF was just over 50% full at the time of cleaning and warnings were frequent and the specialist said my DPFs needed to be replaced at a cost of around £2000

The jag specialist I was using had it done by a 3rd party specialist DPF cleaner (he didn't say who he used) at my request and DPF came back so clean that he told the engine management system that DPF had been replaced. The cost of the clean was £350 and the dealer charged another £200 for the removal and replacement of the DPF(s) apparently a tricky job so overall about £550. The specialist said that this process can be repeated several times.

This issue is not a Jaguar specific one but a general problem for all diesel owners now regardless of manufacturer due to ill considered knee jerk policy requiring diesel particulate filters to be fitted to all diesel cards from 2009 onwards.

I would just echo the above advice to give it a good run regularly.

Hope this info helps!

[Old Peter]

Hi Tim, 

Very useful post.

Regards,

Peter.