Restricted performance when accelerating - intermittent (back again)

[Coolcity]

2 hours ago, Bigvic said:

Delete the fault codes and go for a run in the car

Some of these codes might be old, historical codes

When you’re finished your jaunt, read the codes again to see what’s still there

That's a good point, I've only got the code reader today and haven't had chance to have a proper look at it, so I'm not totally relying on those results yet. I think the brake thing is probably just a glitch, faulty sensor at worst but I'll reset that and see how it goes. 

I took it back to the original dealer I got it from this morning, but some prat had forgotten to book it in so it's going back on Friday. 70 mile round trip - no problems at all until I held back for a clear stretch of road then floored it, and sure enough the "Restricted" light came on again within a couple of seconds, with the accompanying performance hit, so it's definitely turbo related. Seems to happen from 3000 revs upwards. Driving "normally" I can drive it around all day without any problems. 

[Coolcity]

On 9/20/2021 at 7:57 PM, Bigvic said:

Delete the fault codes and go for a run in the car

Some of these codes might be old, historical codes

When you’re finished your jaunt, read the codes again to see what’s still there

This gets even  more mysterious - I did that, and now I'm not getting any fault codes at all. 

I did find this site the other day though, which gives a run down on fault codes and possible causes. Looks quite useful. 

https://www.engine-codes.com/

 

[Bigvic]

Did you boot it to put it into restricted performance?

[Coolcity]

No, not yet - sorry I should have explained better - I wanted to get a "before" and "after" reading, so I cleared the log and did a retest before drove it anywhere. But with the service light still on I expected to get something at least. 

I'll get the "after" reading on the way to the dealers in a few hours' time so I have something to show them, assuming the fault codes show up again of course. 

[Coolcity]

Latest update: Problem persists, but doesn't always kick in at the same time or the same revs, but is always when/after the turbo kicks in. I travelled around half a mile today after booting it, probably the farthest I've got. 

Only three error codes this time, + service light came back. 

• P22D2 - Turbocharger turbine inlet valve stuck open
• P22CF - Turbocharger turbine inlet valve control circuit – OPEN
• P00BD – Mass or volume air flow A circuit range/performance – Air flow too high

Almost speaks for itself. I read a thread on a different forum from someone with near identical symptoms and he had a sticking actuator valve on the turbo (didn't say which one), though someone else simply had a faulty sensor. 

The dealer couldn't find the fault but from what I can gather all they did was tootle around town for a few minutes (despite me giving them a printed sheet with a ton of information, fault codes and when it occurs), so they've asked me to drive around for a couple of weeks and note when the problem occurs. I already know that, so I'm going to have to rearrange to go back and go out with them.  

At least the dealer said "Don't worry about the warranty if you can't get it back before it runs out", but I think they thought I only had 3 months - I have 6. I bet they don't know what a hassle it is to remove the turbo if it's necessary - I've read elsewhere that the steering rack has to be removed?

[Bigvic]

Don’t let the dealer fob you off

Get it back to the shop pronto and get them to fix it

[Coolcity]

No chance of that happening, but it's already been agreed: "they've asked me to drive around for a couple of weeks and note when the problem occurs. I already know that, so I'm going to have to rearrange to go back and go out with them". 

To be clear, they've said they will sort it, from my point it's just a matter of finding the time to get back and probably be without it for a couple of days. 

 

[PaulT]

Sorry, but with all the problems with the vehicle you should be taking the car back to the dealer and demanding you money back.....especially as it seems that the dealer is happy to keep messing you about instead of taking ownership of the problems and fixing them.

[Coolcity]

6 hours ago, PaulT said:

Sorry, but with all the problems with the vehicle you should be taking the car back to the dealer and demanding you money back.....especially as it seems that the dealer is happy to keep messing you about instead of taking ownership of the problems and fixing them.

All the problems?  Sorry, you've lost me. 

Apart from the fact that the tyres were swapped from Dunlop to a cheap Chinese brand - which could have been because the tyres that were on it had flat spots because it had been stood for a few months - the only other issue I've had is a broken fuel filler flap, which they replaced. I did have a vibration issue at speed but that turned out to be the cheap tyres. Also the wheel balancing was way out, apparently not done correctly. 

This issue is probably something sticking open or a small crack in a pipe somewhere, nothing major. With this issue they wouldn't have found it by pottering around town for 10 minutes which is probably what they did. It's a bit inconvenient but I can understand it. I've had far worse issues over the years. 

Despite my early reservations they have taken ownership of the issues, I just think they're a little disorganised. 

[Alan Godfrey]

Hi Coolcity.  Have you got to the fault yet?  I have exactly the same problem!  A repair was carried out under my AA warranty but it did not help.

The garage tried various other things including a repair to the plastic manifold but I picked it up today and it happened again..Having been off the road for 

3 months at the garage I am now hesitant to take it back!  I am starting to think we are all 'over thinking' this and maybe its just a partly blocked fuel filter - I

am fitting a new one tommorow.  We shall see?!

[Coolcity]

5 hours ago, Alan Godfrey said:

Hi Coolcity.  Have you got to the fault yet?  I have exactly the same problem!  A repair was carried out under my AA warranty but it did not help.

The garage tried various other things including a repair to the plastic manifold but I picked it up today and it happened again..Having been off the road for 

3 months at the garage I am now hesitant to take it back!  I am starting to think we are all 'over thinking' this and maybe its just a partly blocked fuel filter - I

am fitting a new one tommorow.  We shall see?!

I'm sort of getting there. I've run it a few times and it's exactly the same every time - it seems as soon as the turbo fires up it goes into Restricted Performance mode. Not always at the exact same point, sometimes it will do it immediately, other times it can take a few seconds but it;'s always on hard acceleration above 3-4000 revs. 

Each time I've run a diagnostic using the iCarsoft LR v2 kit, and keep getting a mix of the ones I listed earlier, but one fault code comes up every time and today it was the only one to show: 

P22D2: Turbocharger - turbine inlet valve stuck open

(Actually to be fair there is an accompanying similar code which is almost identical, P22CF: Turbocharger - turbine inlet valve control circuit open. )

So to me it sounds like exactly what it says, a valve or something on the turbo sticking open. Makes perfect sense as it's only when the turbo kicks in that it happens. I've never thought it's anything to do with the fuel filter to be honest. Of course, I could be completely wrong but I've never thought it to be anything major. 

I've literally just emailed the dealer to see when they can fit it in again, I've been extremely busy and just haven't had the chance until now but I couldn't really leave it any longer. I have tried adding a Wynn's Turbo Cleaner to the tank but I've probably only used around a quarter of a tank of fuel since I've added it. 

looking at the car's history, I think it's been used as a local runabout for the past few years. It's never done more than 5000 miles a year and only around half that for the past 4 years so it's probably clogged up. I bet the turbo has never even been fired up for the past few years. 

[Bigvic]

18 hours ago, Alan Godfrey said:

Hi Coolcity.  Have you got to the fault yet?  I have exactly the same problem!  A repair was carried out under my AA warranty but it did not help.

The garage tried various other things including a repair to the plastic manifold but I picked it up today and it happened again..Having been off the road for 

3 months at the garage I am now hesitant to take it back!  I am starting to think we are all 'over thinking' this and maybe its just a partly blocked fuel filter - I

am fitting a new one tommorow.  We shall see?!

Very difficult or pretty much impossible to fix an air leak on the manifold

They might look plastic, but it’s some kind of composite

It should have been changed if they got that far to attempt a repair

[rodeyorks]

A late peply, I had the same problem on my x type. garage changed egr valve but no better so took it to independent jag specialist who diagnosed faulty turbo actuator. That fixed it and cured the problem. This was still ok 40k later when I sold it.

Cheers

Rod

[Coolcity]

10 hours ago, rodeyorks said:

A late peply, I had the same problem on my x type. garage changed egr valve but no better so took it to independent jag specialist who diagnosed faulty turbo actuator. That fixed it and cured the problem. This was still ok 40k later when I sold it.

Cheers

Rod

Sounds like mine could be the same thing. Hopefully i'll be able to get it back in next week. 

[Dan K]

My wife has a 2011 XK. We have only put 25000 miles on it when the restricted performance triangle came on. It has happened every 300 miles or so since then. It always happens when accelerating from a stop or slow moving 5 mph position. Only once did the car go 2000 miles before failing. I shut off the engine and wait 2 minutes. Car restarts and performs as normal until the next episode. probably 8 episodes in the last 4500 miles. I took it to local Jag dealer who replaced ECM (big bill) to no avail and then replaced throttle actuator {more bucks). When it continued to fail they said all the codes checked out and basically walked away from it. I took it to a local independent garage who checked wiring and air systems.  So I rook it to a jag dealer 120 miles away. I am impressed with their professionalism and diligence but it has been 2 months and still not fixed.  Has anyone had similar experience with failure at low speeds? 

[Coolcity]

That's an odd one Dan, mine is under heavy acceleration rather than from low speeds. I can drive around in it all day, even up to 70 mph with no problems, it's only when I "boot" it such as when overtaking. Definitely a turbo-related issue. Mine also resets itself if I turn the ignition off, wait half a minute or so then restart it.

I haven't had the chance to get it back in yet, not the dealer's fault, hoping for late next week. 

If you've had all that work done and they haven't resolved the problem I would be looking for a refund. Definitely worth a call to Trading Standards I reckon. 

[Coolcity]

Well it's been a while, partly because I've not had the time to get it booked in but partly because when I do have a reasonable gap in my schedule I call them but it ends up taking a them week to get back to me with a date, by which time the gap has gone. 

I've now just managed to get it booked in for Nov 11th so we'll see what happens. I'm going to follow that up with an email to confirm so there are no "misunderstandings". 

I did try a Wynns Turbo Cleaner in the last tankful of fuel and it hasn't made any difference so it's probably more than just a sticking valve. 

[Old Peter]

Hi Gary,

I was having the same problem with my S Type - 2.7 diesel, and the AA indicated that there was one EGR Valve that was using the problem.

I got my mechanic [top man] to look at it and while he ordered a new EGR valve he had misgivings but felt that it could be somewhere in the exhaust  causing the problem.  The exhaust is a stainless steel one.

My mechanic had a friend who was an expert in cleaning exhausts who took my car and ran a system through the exhaust that cleared out anything that was causing the problem.  The cost was £180, and the performer was just was if the car was brand new..

Try to find something like that in Lancashire.

Regards,

Peter.

 

[Coolcity]

That's good information, thank you. Several people have suggested an EGR issue. Service light has come on again too and the DPF filter Full warning (in red - no amber warning) so I'm going to run another diagnostic.

I'm making a note of what people have said based on their experiences and am going to pass it on to the dealer via a printout and via email so I have proof they've been given as much information as possible when it goes in on the 11th Nov; as far as I'm concerned it's up to them to find and resolve the problem. 

The cause is probably that, based on the mileage especially over the past few years, someone's most likely just used it for pottering around town for the past 5 years. It's probably coked up and it could be me, but it does feel a little sluggish compared to when I first got it at the end of June. 

[Coolcity]

10 hours ago, Coolcity said:

That's good information, thank you. Several people have suggested an EGR issue. Service light has come on again too and the DPF Filter Full warning (in red - no amber warning) so I'm going to run another diagnostic.

I'm making a note of what people have said based on their experiences and am going to pass it on to the dealer via a printout and via email so I have proof they've been given as much information as possible when it goes in on the 11th Nov; as far as I'm concerned it's up to them to find and resolve the problem. 

The cause is probably that, based on the mileage especially over the past few years, someone's most likely just used it for pottering around town for the past 5 years. It's probably coked up and it could be me, but it does feel a little sluggish compared to when I first got it at the end of June. 

 

Just a query about EGR valves - aren't they only supposed to be operating at lower revs, circa 2000 RPM or so? Reason I ask is I don't have any problem at low revs, the problem only occurs at higher revs, seemingly when the turbo kicks in. 

[Old Peter]

Hi Gary,

The turbo could be the problem.  When I was giving the engine some chances to give the EGRs some cleaning I had to get over 2000revs,

Peter. 

[rodeyorks]

I had a similar problem with my x type. Changed egr but no different. Idependent Jag garage tracked it down to faulty Turbo actuator. Replaced and no more problems.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Rod

[Coolcity]

Yes, based on my limited experience but on the fact that the Turbo fault is the only one that has come up every time, and the fact that the warning and limited performance only happens when I accelerate hard enough to fire up the turbo, I'm far more inclined to think it's the actuator rather than the EGRs. 

That said, I've noticed the idle is erractic a couple of times, just for a few seconds, and sometimes there's a slight exhaust smell in the cabin, which I put down to the DPF burning off initially but it's there now at low speeds. Both those would point to the EGR side I would think.

[Coolcity]

NEW DEVELOPMENT

I posted on 31 October that the DPF Full light had come on. Notably in red - every time I've heard this mentioned in the various DPF threads I've read, an amber warning is always quoted but mine is most definitely red - "DPF FULL - SEE HANDBOOK". I'm aware that some cars have an amber warning light but as far as I'm aware the XF only has the text warning. This was accompanied by an amber engine warning light. Both went off after a steady 65mph motorway run of around 80 miles. It actually went off half way through the run, I stopped the engine for a minute before setting off back and the warning had cleared. 

But the Restricted Performance issue still appears if I "boot" it. 

Yesterday - less than a week after clearing it - the DPF Full warning came on again. Last night I did the same run again, and again the fault cleared after checking it at the half way point, about 40 miles, but the engine warning light stayed on. If I stop again and wait for a minute and restart, the engine warning light goes out. 

 

So now we have a red DPF warning that has reappeared after just 150 or so 'local' miles, fumes in the cabin (which I initially put down to the regeneration process), and an amber engine warning light on. "Service Required" light is on too, even though the last service was done less than 3000 miles ago. 

Is it reasonable to assume then that the problem all along could be a DPF that's now blocked and needs (at the very least) removing and cleaning, and could this be the cause of the Restricted Performance (RP) issue. I'm thinking along the lines of if it's blocked, it can't cope with the extra gas flow that comes from higher speeds/running with the turbo active and therefore that's what is causing the RP issue. Does that make sense or am I barking up the wrong tree? 

On running a diag using ICarsoft LR V2.0 I get the following fault code: 

P2463 - DPF filter pressure sensor B circuit range/performance

But no other fault codes. If I drive it and trigger the Restricted Performance warning I get the P22D2 & P22CF codes - Turbocharger: turbine inlet valve stuck open. 

[Coolcity]

OK, so due to the added DPF issue I've had an assessment done locally, partly because the garage I went to does DPF cleaning by removing the filter and flushing it clean, which removes both the soot and the ash, and partly because the owner of the garage runs a Range Rover Sport with the exact same engine. And it's only a mile away instead of an 80 mile round trip.

He says it's a fairly common issue with these, the turbo actuator gets blocked and in turn that leads to the DPF becoming blocked. 

The car has only done 54k, but has done only 3k a year or less for the past 6 years and not much more than that for the rest of the time, apart from the first 18 months so there's no doubt that the previous owners have just been tootling around town with it and have probably never been over 30mph, so we know the DPF needs a full clean at the very least.

With that in mind I've decided to get it done locally by this garage who obviously know what they're doing, so I know it's all done right and properly. They're going to check the turbo and EGR valves, just make sure everything is cleaned throughout and that it's running according to spec. 

I spoke briefly to the dealer I got it from and they said they think it only needs a good dose of cleaner flushing through it and that will clear it (I'm not even sure if they were talking about the turbo or the DPF), but I'm not happy that won't be anything other than a temporary fix, and I'd still have to get the DPF professionally cleaned anyway. I asked their mechanic over the phone "What about the EGR valves", and he sounded puzzled and said he didn't think this model was fitted with EGR valves. I honestly don't think they have a clue what they're doing, they're just fitters. Even the door handle fix had to be outsourced to somebody else because they didn't know what to do as they'd never done one before (actual job took less then 10 minutes). If I take it in I'd likely still need more work doing, I wouldn't know what they had done or checked and it's more hassle than it's worth, especially as it could be doing the engine and turbo more harm until the job's been done properly.

The DPF isn't covered by warranty as it's classed as a consumable, so I've nothing to gain by taking it back to the dealer. I might as well get the whole job done properly and get it running as it should be, for peace of mind if nothing else. Then I know it's right and it's not going to break the bank (quote was around £350) so it's going in next Wednesday.

I know this isn't ideal but it could turn out to be a ton of hassle that apart from anything else I don't have time for, and overall I'm still happy I've got a decent car for the money so why make it any more complicated than it needs to be for what at best would be a negligible saving and at worst could end up costing me a whole lot more time and money. 

I'll post the results here when the job's been done.