S-Type trackday

[JustBadly]

Here are a few pics and a vid of me driving around Mallory Park at the end of last year on the very last warm enough day.

https://youtu.be/EBZpqfJHO7k

 

[O.T.H]

Hi Justin--The S-Type is always a fantastic looking Jaguar and yours certainly looks up to that -great --

[Russ68]

Wow! Pics look great Justin, although I couldn't see the video. How did she go and what model do you have? I had/have ambitions to do something similar. Our local car club take over Goodwood on occasion and I was hoping to jump on that. But I'm in the process of recommissioning my S-Type so it may be awhile before that happens 🤞

 

[LairdScooby]

Good video, what exhausts did you fit and any chance of a video from the back please? Also what engine? I'm looking for some new back boxes (planning to fit some time after easter so not a tearing hurry) so any recommendations are useful.

Looked a good track day, fairly perdictable the smaller cars built only for track days were going past flat out, after all you don't want an "off" in your road car! 😉 😄

[JustBadly]

The exhaust are a straight-thru with the mid silencers retained. Silent on tickover but plenty loud at high rpm. You can get these at drive in exhaust shops for £3-400 and a few hours. It's the 2.5 auto and the gears were tricky, I was thinking that if I selected the max gear to run on a straight with the 'J' gate it would be better than just using sport mode. Can't give you a rear facing camera cause I don't have one. Watch out for the tyres you use, if you look carefully at the 1st picture the rear tyre is folding over on the tread. It's Toyo's on the front and some cheapo hack on the back. They were about done so I didn't mind doing the trackday with them. Luckily I didn't have a blowout. The engine was faultless I have to say, I did about 60 laps. Everything got fairly hot but I've already done a racing conversion for the liquid cooling and it's biased to run cool. You can see the fitment of the thermostatic valve in this picture - guess the rest!

[LairdScooby]

39 minutes ago, JustBadly said:

The exhaust are a straight-thru with the mid silencers retained. Silent on tickover but plenty loud at high rpm. You can get these at drive in exhaust shops for £3-400 and a few hours.

Ah, right, thanks - these are the ones that are currently top of my list :

https://www.adamesh.co.uk/s-type-performance-exhaust---25l-30l-1138-p.asp

41 minutes ago, JustBadly said:

Can't give you a rear facing camera cause I don't have one.

That wasn't what i meant - i meant can you video the back end of the car to give me an idea of the sound of it please?

I'm not sure about doing a track day as yet, i notice you are wearing a crash helmet, presumably that's a safety requirement? If so, are there any others?

 

[Russ68]

The video decided to work today 🙂 Looked like you were taking it pretty easy Justin, guess you didn't want to blow her up or run off the road if you were driving home!

Did you say you routed the air intake to inside the engine bay? This might not be the best thing, as you want as cool a charge for the engine as you can, rather than the warm engine bay air. Perhaps I misunderstood. I've secured the intake from an STR that I intend to fashion onto my 3.0 Sport manual. The std 3.0 takes air from inside the inner wing, but it goes through a hard 90° to do it, so I saw room for improvement there.

After a long search I've finally found the awesome Adamesh rear silencers, so I have some nice stainless straight through rear silencers for sale if anyone wants them? They have a small stainless silencer on them, smaller than the Adamesh, and much smaller and lighter than the huge standard ones, with a nice burble on idle and a rising crescendo at high revs! 👊

 

 

[LairdScooby]

11 minutes ago, Russ68 said:

I've secured the intake from an STR that I intend to fashion onto my 3.0 Sport manual. The std 3.0 takes air from inside the inner wing, but it goes through a hard 90° to do it, so I saw room for improvement there.

Sometimes you can't improve on what the manufacturer has done Russ, especially with either variable length intake runners or variable valve timing. On my other beast that i'm still trying to decide whether to sell or restore, it has variable length intakes and a strange looking air intake system that not only takes air from the inside of the wing but also has a resonator box there. Many people junked the OE air filter housing and this resonator arrangement and stuffed a big cone type air filter with a cold air feed in place of it. Then they wondered why it was noisy, gutless and thirsty.

They were losing all the pulse tuning advantages designed in originally.

I'm not saying your ideas won't work, just that you may have to be prepared to rethink at some point. Perhaps an alternative form of air intake cooling would be a better option?

[Russ68]

5 hours ago, LairdScooby said:

Sometimes you can't improve on what the manufacturer has done Russ, especially with either variable length intake runners or variable valve timing. On my other beast that i'm still trying to decide whether to sell or restore, it has variable length intakes and a strange looking air intake system that not only takes air from the inside of the wing but also has a resonator box there. Many people junked the OE air filter housing and this resonator arrangement and stuffed a big cone type air filter with a cold air feed in place of it. Then they wondered why it was noisy, gutless and thirsty.

They were losing all the pulse tuning advantages designed in originally.

I'm not saying your ideas won't work, just that you may have to be prepared to rethink at some point. Perhaps an alternative form of air intake cooling would be a better option?

You may be right Dave, with 240bph, the 3.0 has an excellent output  and was pretty well thought out before leaving the factory. They're aren't a lot of 'low hanging fruit' in regards easy gains for power or efficiency (if I've overlooked any, please let me know! 😆).

But I thought the Jag designed STR intake, which is a fab looking scoop affair made for 400bhp in this car, would likely draw more air than the standard 3.0 rather convoluted system, here's a pic of it: 

If I can't marry this up or getting running smoothly it will be easy to revert to the standard intake. I bought it from a breaker for not a great deal of money, so it's worth a try IMHO. Nothing ventured nothing gained etc.

BTW, we had a discussion about just this on this forum in 2016, I can probably dig out a link or it's easy to find should anyone be interested 😉 

 

[LairdScooby]

1 hour ago, Russ68 said:

You may be right Dave, with 240bph, the 3.0 has an excellent output  and was pretty well thought out before leaving the factory. They're aren't a lot of 'low hanging fruit' in regards easy gains for power or efficiency (if I've overlooked any, please let me know! 😆).

I have to agree there Russ, the Mazda version is ~205bhp, Fords version ~225bhp and Jaguar tweaked it somewhat more to get the 240bhp. As you suggest, not much room for easy power gains. There may be some to be had from using 98 octane or a very simple water injection system if - and it's a big "if" - the Visteon engine management advances the ignition timing and then retards a little when it detects knock like the Honda PGM-Fi system does. If it sets the timing at a standard figure and only retards it by a few degrees when it detects knock then after a given period without knock, reverts to standard like the older Bosch LH-Jetronic and Motronic then the water injection wouldn't help to boost power.

I have a feeling it is the former as mine is converted to LPG (which is ~105RON) and mine tends to go better on gas than petrol, like my 827 Coupe did (i converted that one, never got round to doing the Sterling) because the Rover used the Hodna engine and PGM-Fi system.

Thanks to a failed CPU fan on my old PC, i lost all the useful documentation i had on water injection but it was a very simple system, essentially using a hypodermic needle as the measuring jet with a small bore hose into a water reservoir and the needle is inserted into a ported vacuum hose, in simple terms functioning as a crude main jet from a carburettor in days of old.

However, i still have a functional system on the Rover which i can probably transfer to the S Type to try it if nothing else.

Your idea for grafting the STR air scoop in should work, it should pick up air from the radiator grille area so should be cooler than engine bay air and you may even get a bit of "ram effect" at high speed - probably negligible in terms of power gain though.

[Russ68]

20 minutes ago, LairdScooby said:

I have to agree there Russ, the Mazda version is ~205bhp, Fords version ~225bhp and Jaguar tweaked it somewhat more to get the 240bhp. As you suggest, not much room for easy power gains. There may be some to be had from using 98 octane or a very simple water injection system if - and it's a big "if" - the Visteon engine management advances the ignition timing and then retards a little when it detects knock like the Honda PGM-Fi system does. If it sets the timing at a standard figure and only retards it by a few degrees when it detects knock then after a given period without knock, reverts to standard like the older Bosch LH-Jetronic and Motronic then the water injection wouldn't help to boost power.

I have a feeling it is the former as mine is converted to LPG (which is ~105RON) and mine tends to go better on gas than petrol, like my 827 Coupe did (i converted that one, never got round to doing the Sterling) because the Rover used the Hodna engine and PGM-Fi system.

Thanks to a failed CPU fan on my old PC, i lost all the useful documentation i had on water injection but it was a very simple system, essentially using a hypodermic needle as the measuring jet with a small bore hose into a water reservoir and the needle is inserted into a ported vacuum hose, in simple terms functioning as a crude main jet from a carburettor in days of old.

However, i still have a functional system on the Rover which i can probably transfer to the S Type to try it if nothing else.

Your idea for grafting the STR air scoop in should work, it should pick up air from the radiator grille area so should be cooler than engine bay air and you may even get a bit of "ram effect" at high speed - probably negligible in terms of power gain though.

Interesting that Dave! From what I know about water injection, I thought it was mainly to stop pre-ignition in high compression and forced induction engines. But you think it may be a benefit to a normally aspirated S-Type?

I think the Rocketeer guys who are dropping the Jag AJ-V6 into Maxda MX5s are claiming ~255bhp mainly from improvements to the inlet manifold (they have 2 low profile ones for the conversion). So with this in mind I have secured a couple of spare manifolds and want to have a look at cleaning up the castings and ensuring  it's all as good as can be. Plush an external polish for a bit of engine bay bling!

I had bigger plans in the early days of my S-Type ownership and considered such craziness as NO2 and turbo charging. But now I just want to get her back on the road in a relatively stock form. Excepting the manifold work, Adamesh pipes and STR induction I mentioned before. I also have the rare 275/35/18 rear wheels from an STR which fill out the rear arches beautifully!

I also undertake any servicing and repair using high quality OEM parts. Gone are the days where I may have thought that an amateur fettler such as myself could really improve on Jaguar engineering. Rather I want to ensure she's running as well as designed, with a little bit of help here and there to make her as dynamic as possible and best suited to my needs 🙂 

 

[LairdScooby]

1 hour ago, Russ68 said:

Interesting that Dave! From what I know about water injection, I thought it was mainly to stop pre-ignition in high compression and forced induction engines. But you think it may be a benefit to a normally aspirated S-Type?

During the war.................... 😛 - in fact that really was when it happened! The pilots of the WW II aircraft noticed on damp days, they would get more power and economy, especially at higher altitudes. Supercharging was used to get round the thinner atmosphere to keep the planes flying and then you had other engines without it, both gave better performance in cold, wet weather it seems. These days with modern engine management, the difference might be "muffled" somewhat by the electronics but i'm sure there are still gains to be found.

1 hour ago, Russ68 said:

I think the Rocketeer guys who are dropping the Jag AJ-V6 into Maxda MX5s are claiming ~255bhp mainly from improvements to the inlet manifold (they have 2 low profile ones for the conversion).

I thought they were claiming 276bhp through the lack of catalytic converters, based on the early MX-5s not needing a cat because they were built pre-1992? Not heard about inlet manifold improvements. A 15% increase on 240bhp is 36bhp and it's generally reckoned to be a 15% improvement removing the cat on any engine. Or at least it used to be, some people are now claiming there is no difference but a cat, by its very nature, is restrictive. Will be interesting to find out if some of the extra power is attributable to the inlet manifold! I remember when i had my Jeep XJ Cherokee, a popular mod in the USA was to fit a spacer between the inlet manifold and throttle body. This increased the volume of the inlet manifold and also increased the length between inlet valve head and throttle creating a longer inlet pulse which would improve torque. A shorter inlet manifold should increase power by reversing that theory so it could well be.

 

2 hours ago, Russ68 said:

I had bigger plans in the early days of my S-Type ownership and considered such craziness as NO2 and turbo charging. But now I just want to get her back on the road in a relatively stock form. Excepting the manifold work, Adamesh pipes and STR induction I mentioned before. I also have the rare 275/35/18 rear wheels from an STR which fill out the rear arches beautifully!

It sounds like you have good plans for your S-Type Russ, good idea concentrating on getting the important bits running and worry about the power later. I'm still learning how mine drives, where to position my right foot for the best acceleration so it keeps within the VVT power band with each shift and so on. In nearly 40 years of (legal) driving, until recently there was only one car that always put a grin on my face from driving it, that was my 827 Sterling, this S-Type is the second. I hope your recommissioing project gives you as much pleasure when it comes to fruition! 😉 😄

[Russ68]

12 hours ago, LairdScooby said:

It sounds like you have good plans for your S-Type Russ, good idea concentrating on getting the important bits running and worry about the power later. I'm still learning how mine drives, where to position my right foot for the best acceleration so it keeps within the VVT power band with each shift and so on. In nearly 40 years of (legal) driving, until recently there was only one car that always put a grin on my face from driving it, that was my 827 Sterling, this S-Type is the second. I hope your recommissioing project gives you as much pleasure when it comes to fruition! 😉 😄

Thanks Dave, I also have a headlining to replace and a rusted and mangled wheel nut to remove and a couple of panels to respray. Hopefully all doable 🤞 I've secured a complete donor car, an X200 manual SE, mine is a sport, which should help keeping her on the road long term.

I've had a few cars that give me that grin you mention, including my MGF which I still own, but my 3.0 S-Type with the manual gearbox exceeded my expectations, which were quite high in the first place! Grace, space and pace indeed 😁

[LairdScooby]

From your avatar Russ, it looks like yours is the same colour as mine, Sapphire? The code eludes me at the moment but JGH rings a sort of bell.

Is the mangled, rusted wheel nut rusted onto the stud? If so, try mixing a 50/50 mix of Carlube ATF-U/acetone (nail varnish remover), shake it up then brush/dribble/spray it on and let it soak. I call it WMP - Weapon of Mass Penetration and since i started using it, haven't found a fastener that isn't removed using it. Once mixed, it needs a good shake and another good shake before each use and sealing between uses or the acetone evaporates. If you can't get hold of ATF-U then NAPA MVA works just as well. I daresay any other synthetic ATF with a viscosity of ~32 would also work, maybe even a thinner one like Dexron 6 would work better but i haven't tried it.

Always fancied an MGf but i doubt i could get in one these days and even if i could, the automatic versions are that rare i'd spend so long finding one i'd be too old to enjoy it if i did! Would have made sense for me when i was still using the 827 Sterling as they share a few parts, not many but they are parts that MGf owners usually struggle to find. Things like rear brake calipers, brake master cylinders etc.

Unusual to find an S-Type with a manual box, on the 3.0 at least, did it take you long to find it?

[Russ68]

Pacific Blue is memory serves, the donor SE I have is a lighter metallic blue 😉 

[LairdScooby]

https://www.paintcolourchart.com/cars/036/s-type.html

According to that, mine is JHE, you might be able to find the colours of yours and the donor car too!

[Russ68]

The paint codes are on a sticker inside the front doors, in case this help 😉 

 

[LairdScooby]

I know Russ - i just couldn't be bothered going out to the car to check! 😛

[JustBadly]

This gives a better idea of the cooling conversion. Simply put, the thermostatic valve is placed after the cylinder head and before the radiator. This is typical for a race installation, it is not typical for street use. This is the heart of the conversion, without this there was no point me being there. The standard setup sees the thermostat valve 'after' the radiator and because of this the engine temperature has to be higher to open the valve. Not only that, the thermostatic valve has a sprung plate on the back of it that will open given enough water pressure. So if the engine is revved the plate will allow water thru and this goes back to the pump/head, bypassing the radiator. This is what I mean when I say the standard V6 is biased to run hot. The V8 is built right with the thermostatic housing part of the cylinder head, don't compare the two they are totally different.

The back pipes are less restrictive preventing knock. If an exhaust is excessively restrictive burnt gases buildup in the downpipes, the exhaust stroke does not fully evacuate and exhaust gas can re-enter the cylinder. If exhaust gases flow back into the inlet port during valve overlap this can cause pre-detonation, potentially holing a piston. So if a standard V6 is run around a racetrack there is a high chance of engine failure. There is no need to route cool air into the air intake since it isn't turbo'd and the inlet manifold casting is hot when running. Searching for that perfect air intake isn't worthwhile, we are not doing 300mph

 

 

[Russ68]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:20 AM, LairdScooby said:

Is the mangled, rusted wheel nut rusted onto the stud? If so, try mixing a 50/50 mix of Carlube ATF-U/acetone (nail varnish remover), shake it up then brush/dribble/spray it on and let it soak. I call it WMP - Weapon of Mass Penetration and since i started using it, haven't found a fastener that isn't removed using it. Once mixed, it needs a good shake and another good shake before each use and sealing between uses or the acetone evaporates. If you can't get hold of ATF-U then NAPA MVA works just as well. I daresay any other synthetic ATF with a viscosity of ~32 would also work, maybe even a thinner one like Dexron 6 would work better but i haven't tried it.

 

Hey Dave,

Thanks for the advice re the wheel nut, it's mega mangled so may be beyond this type of help, but I'll give it a go, sounds like a clever use of chemistry 👍

Yup, it had to be a Sport manual for me, they are rarer, but in 2015 when I bought her, there were still a few about. Now I have 2 with my manual SE donor as well 🙂 

The MGF is great, but not a patch on the Jag for build or execution, I've had it since 2003. It will be fab when I have them both back on the road again.

Cheers 😉 

[LairdScooby]

Youre welcome Russ, funnily enough i gave the same advice to a neighbour with a 58 plate Mondeo that just happens to use the same nuts as the S Type. Sadly his locking key nut kept slipping out (both lock nut and key nut were slightly mangled from previous use) and he'd already shredded the slip ring around the outside of the lock nut. As the lock nut is enclosed, it was impossible to get to the threads easily so he's ordered one of those tools like a socket that removes locking nuts. If that still struggles i'll give him a squirt of my WMP to try.

After seeing the state of his lock nut etc, i've decided next time a set of 4 normal nuts comes up on eBay, i'm buying them and replacing the lock nuts with them! The reason he needed to remove the nut on his car was because the tyre had developed a large hole in the sidewall! 😮

Luckily for him, it happened at home but imagine the grief it would cause if it happened 200 miles from home!

I can't drive a manual these days but have always preferred auto, especially in bigger cars but glad you managed to find yourself a manual.

I think the workforce at Rover had lost the will to live after being taken over by BMW so i daresay they let quality slip a bit, in fact a couple of ex-Rover employees suggested as much. That said comparing the S Type to the MGf is a bit like comparing the original (1963-68) S Type to the MGB, 2 very different animals, each doing what they're designed to do very well but neither can offer exactly what the other does.