Rough Riding on not so good roads

[Billyboy]

My XF (3.0 Litre Diesel) Premium Luxury Sept 2013 is throwing me about in my seat when travelling over some roads. My wheels/tyres are 18"......Pirelli 245/45. I am told that these are "Low Profile" tyres, which may be part of the problem. I have been in contact with my Dealer who have given me a great deal of help.....All to no avail...........I have read items on Forums which show that the suspension set up on the XF will give this "Jiggly" ride. I notice that there are some models of the 3.0 litre that run with 17" wheels. Apart from the appearence of these smaller wheels, would tyres fitted to an XF result in tyres that would be considered NOT to be "Low Profile".......would these smaller Wheels/Tyres result in a better ride over roads that would normally be a "Jiggly" one with my 18" wheels/tyres that I have fitted at the moment........Unfortunately my Wife is now confined to her bed with Spinal Cancer, so I am mainly using my Lovely XF for short trips with the occasional Dual Carriage/Motorway Journeys, so I am suffering a rough ride most of the time which is getting on my nerves.......When I had a Road Test in an 3.0 litre D I mainly was on main roads so I really did not come across the "Jiggly" ride (Allthough I did experience a type of "Wallowing" sensation).......does anybody out there know if this problem will subside with time/milage. The car that I had before this XF was an X type Soveriegn which had 17" wheels and was a very,very comfortable ride. 

       Any answer to this Topic will be greatly appreciated........Many Thanks.....Billyboy    

[Jaguar Owners Club]

Hi Billyboy

 

To start with, I would check and inflate/deflate tyre pressures if necessary.

You could go for a larger profile to allow for a more comfortable ride but lose the handling benefits.

 

Any members out there experiencing the same problem with their XF ?

[Billyboy]

Visited my Dealer again today in order to buy some screenwash. When they get the next demonstrator in with 17" wheels (235/50 tyres) they will fit these wheels to my XF in order to see what the ride is like. I am told that there will be an improvement. If I do not agree they will put my 18"wheels back onto my XF........Whilst I was there I had the chance of seeing two XF's that were fitted with 17"/235/50 Wheels. They did not look so good as the 18"wheels but I will be happy if I get the ride results that I am after.

Since the XF is sold with 245/45 x 18" wheels and also 235/50 x 17" wheels there must be a difference in the ride and handling qualities otherwise why do they produce the same model car with different size tyres/wheels. Or is there something else.........has anyone got an XF 3.0 litre fitted with 235/50 x 17" wheels if so your observations would be appreciated.

Happy and Careful motoring over the Xmas...........Billyboy

[Jaguar Owners Club]

Hi Billyboy,

have to start by saying sorry!...there were posts on here in response to your question but they were wiped out last week when we had a software problem.

However, look forward to hearing how you get on with the replacement wheels...I personally think it will make quite a difference to the ride but maybe compromise the handling slightly.

 

Any other members experience something similar with ride quality on the XF ?

[Joggerboy]

Hi, well the ride quality on poor roads is just one of the complaints I have with my XF. I also have 18" wheels and not keen on swapping to 17" due to the look. But to be honest, I think the harsh ride is actually one of the things you have to live with. In my opinion, changing to 17" is likely to give only marginal improvement.

[Martin118]

Hi Billyboy.

Welcome to the 'Emperor's New Clothes' club. Few people, especially reviewers, seem to have been prepared to admit that Jaguar have messed up on the suspension design of the XF. It's deceptive because it's nice and quiet, giving a low level of transmitted noise. However, in my view, there's insufficient compliance in the springs, leading to poor attenuation of low frequency shock and vibration transmitted from the road.

I believe that, in order to try and compensate for this deficiency, Jaguar have used very compliant bushes in the system. That's fine at lower speeds, but I get the impression that it leads to a higher frequency resonance in the secondary ride so that the car never seems to settle down in normal cruising - it always feels restless. After 3 years of trying to convince myself and my wife that actually there couldn't possibly be a problem with a Jaguar suspension, I finally 'came out' and recognised the fact that it's really pretty bad - the Emperor isn't actually wearing any clothes!

I started with 20-inch wheels (standard on the Portfolio), which are just dreadful uncomfortable bling, as you might imagine - I fancied I could feel every stone in the Tarmac! I'm now on 18-inch wheels, which are much more comfortable, especially shod in the softer rubber of winter tyres. A further solution for me has been to get Spires to fit their Comfort suspension, which is derived from the S-type springs and shocks. This is pretty good. I feel that it's the suspension that the XF should have had in the first place. As far as I can tell, the handling hasn't suffered - in fact I find the car more secure in corners because its line is no longer upset by bumps in the road.

So - rest assured that you're not alone in recognising this XF suspension design problem, so disappointing in a Jaguar. I can recommend the Spires comfort suspension as a retrofit, which goes a long way towards proper comfort. The full solution would I think mean deeper profile tyres - unfortunately I think 18 inch are the smallest I can fit on my XF-S and are still pretty low profile, so transmit more vibration to the suspension than is ideal. Incidentally, I informed my insurers (Direct Line) about this mod, but they weren't very interested and didn't change the premium.

I have no connection with Spires, other than being a satisfied customer. I'm relieved that there are more and more of us recognising this suspension problem with an otherwise excellent car and I wish you success in getting it fixed!

All good wishes,

Martin

[Old Peter]

Interesting post, Martin.

 

I drive an S Type 2.7 Diesel with 18" Pirellis and find that it is very good absorbing the bumps on poor road surfaces.  And very quiet, too.

 

Regards

 

Peter

[DWilson]

Have just taken delivery of a new 3.0 (240) Sportbrake Premium Luxury - I specified 17in wheels in an attempt to minimise the "jiggly" ride over poor-quality roads (aka anywhere in England!) 

 

I tried a Portfolio first (standard 19in wheels) and that was horribly uncomfortable - Heaven knows what the blingy 20in wheels feel like!   Then a Premium Luxury with standard 18in wheels - still not up to historical Jaguar standards of ride comfort (like "Old Peters" S type).

 

Predictably, as delivered (on 17 inch) it's better, but still not what anyone could call comfortable.  (Given that I'm built more for cake than speed...) Not as comfortable as the well-run-in "Luxury" I test-drove;  but I don't know what make of tyre that was on.   It's arrived with Pirelli Cinturato P7 235/55 tyres - now set at the 36psi all round specified in the handbook.   Those have always had a reputation of being harsh, but I can't do anything about that at this stage.  Haven't yet found out enough about the rear air-spring set-up to know whether I can expect it to "relax" a bit as the newness wears off - or indeed whether it can be adjusted to be a bit less unforgiving.  (The Spires' solution won't work for the Sportbrake)

 

As the various forums say, it seems that Jaguar has succumbed to the current German fashion of having the suspension set very stiff, especially at the back - stiff springs, overdamped. Fine on billiard-smooth German roads, and giving undoubted improvement in ultimate cornering ability, but transmits too much vibration from poor road surfaces.  

 

A pity, as it spoils what would otherwise be a very nice car.

[Old Peter]

Welcome to the Club, David, and a very informative fist post, may I say.

 

Many years ago I asked a college why he always seemed to buy his cars just after a new model was announced. buying the last of the old model instead of the first of the new one.  He told me that the last of the old model always had any issues with it solved by the time the new model came out.

 

Experimenting with the wheel sizes sometimes does help solve a problem but if there seems to be something inbuilt then a full examination is need.

 

The Castle Bromwich plant and surrounding area  ---   which is where I live  --- is abundantly served with some very good roads, and I have only had problems with ride and handling with a Compay Car --  a Toyota Avensis -- which was one of the first to come off the line ,.  All its problems were solved after the makeover two years late.

 

Regards,

 

Peter.

[Billyboy]

Hi DWilson,

                  I feel "Over the Moon" on reading your article. I have exactly the same feeling and results that you describe. It is most satisfying to read that someone else is experiencing the riding problems that go with the Lovely XF. As already mentioned on these forums, I purchased a new 3.0litre D in Satellite Grey ( a lovely soft Blue when the sun is shining) which had 18" Vela wheels 245/45 Tyres fitted. This were inflated to 31 lbs/sq " pressure. I experienced a very harsh ride on badly repaired roads (as I live in Devon, most roads are in this state). I eventually, and at a cost, had the wheels replaced with 17" wheels with 235/55 Pirelli tyres running at 34lbs/sq" pressure. The result is that the Harshness over bumpy roads is no longer a bone jarring ride, but my XF still jumps about. However what I now get is the "White Line" syndrome (which was not there on the 18" wheels) the car changes sideways direction when going over changes in road surfaces (or when one part of the road surface is higher or lower than the other. Incidently is it me, when travelling in the Slow Lane on Motorways it seems that the constant running of Heavy Lorries have created "Wheel Ruts" I call them "Tram Lines"....this also results in a sideways movement of my XF when changing lanes from Nearside to Middle lanes, which is something at 70mph, (does anyone else out there get this feeling of "Ruts" being created on the Motorways). It seems to me that there are many permutations with regards to the XF suspension and riding. Some owners feel that everything is OK and others (like yours truly) think that it is not so good. However I have got a much "Softer" ride on the 17" wheels so I will carry on. I now have a set of 4 x 18" Vela wheels with 245/45 Pirreli tyres that have only done 2200 miles to sell.  Thanks once again DWilson for echoing my feelings exactly.

 

                 Regards.............Billyboy

[DWilson]

An update to my earlier post about "jiggly" ride in my new Sportbrake - prem lux on 17in wheels.  Now 2000 miles in, and just driven 800 miles down through France.  On Autoroutes and undulating roads the ride is fine - firm, but very comfortable, and the way it handles bigger bumps indicates that the springing is probably about right.  Broken road surfaces are a different story.  It seems that the damping in the rear air springs is too stiff, so there's no apparent rebound and the suspension feels locked solid (try it on the rumble strips on the edge of the road!) Also means that if you try hard on a corner with short-period bumps, the back end gets skittery and skips out of line.   It's very sensitive to tyre pressure - if you drop them to 32psi the straight-line ride improves, but you start to get the tramlining that that BillyBoy reports - 35 seems about right. 

 

Is it my imagination, or is it worse first thing in the morning and in the cold?

 

Spires(in Leicester) do a kit to soften the saloon which gets good reviews, so I contacted them about the Sportbrake - and apparently I'm not the first.  They are going to look into the possibilities.  Watch this space!

[Billyboy]

Hi DWilson,

lovely artical on your XF. Nice to get another view on an XF running on 17" wheels (allthough its a Sportsbrake) and on different types of roads, and in another Country, which makes a good comparison.

I have been making a few tests on my XF Prem Lux (Saloon). I set the tyre pressures to 32 lbs/sq" when COLD. I then checked the pressures after a 10 mile run on the M5 motorway. The tyre pressures were then immediately checked again and they had increased to 36 lbs/sq". The next test I intend to carry out is to travel over short section of badly surfaced road with the pressures set at 30 lbs /sq" (cold) and I will increase them at 1 lb/sq" each time up to 36lbs/sq" (cold). I want to try these tests when the tyres are cold. Fortunately I can do this as I have bad sections of road shortly after leaving home. Like you, I too think that it is mainly to do with the XF suspension set-up that is the problem....the varying tyre pressures help to absorb or stiffen the ride especially with the sidewall size of tyre.......ie; 245/45 or 235/55 etc. Incidently I removed my wheels last week in order to paint the brake callipers. I noticed that on the nearside rear suspension arm there was a small unit attached that appeared to be some form of a Varible Resistor set up. There were wires attached to this unit..........I will try to fathom out what this does..........anyone out there know what it is for?

Regards......Billyboy

[Billyboy]

Hi again,

           with regards to the unit attached to the rear suspension on my XF which I have mentioned in a reply to DWilson today, I have been looking through the XF E/Manual that I purchesed and is now installed on my PC and Tablet.......gradually getting to grips with this manual.......I have reason to think that it is a SENSOR HEIGHT UNIT that is used to raise or lower the headlamps.............As the suspention lowers with weight, the unit detects this and it operates a Variable Resistor which in turn operates the Headlamp Motor Unit.............Hope this is right............Anyone know different?

 

              Regards.............Billyboy

[SimonKD]

Every time I take my S type 2.7 D in for a service the dealer kindly lends me an XF probably in the hope that I will "upgrade." Eons ago I drove XJ6 Series 1, 2 and 3 then in the late '80's got my first of many BMW E34s and I didn't think I would ever drive Jag again. Then the facelift S Type came out and I thought that looks nice - no chrome. I test drove one and was struck by how they had managed to capture the Jag DNA for handling and performance. Back to the plot! When I drive the XF it feels like that DNA has been lost. I am always happy to leave the XF at the dealer and get back into the S Type and think what a joy it is to drive compared to the XF. Not sure what to go for once the S Type expires as I am not convinced by the new BMW 5 Series or the XF or Mercs. 

[1807mick]

Im a new member looking to buy a replacement for an S type, wanted a an XF but have read every word (almost) written on the firm ride etc. This is definately a deal breaker for me so I wondered if anyone has thought of changing the springs and shockers for those fitted to the s type. They appear to be the same size/mountings etc, and would be a softer ride than the spires kit

[SimonKD]

1 hour ago, 1807mick said:

Im a new member looking to buy a replacement for an S type, wanted a an XF but have read every word (almost) written on the firm ride etc. This is definately a deal breaker for me so I wondered if anyone has thought of changing the springs and shockers for those fitted to the s type. They appear to be the same size/mountings etc, and would be a softer ride than the spires kit

I would stick with the S Type for as long as you can. I just gave mine to my partner with a new set of Jag fitment Pirelli P7 Cinturatos on it which give the best ride and quietness. I have gone for an E320 Merc with the soft ride option. It is fabulous, like riding on a cloud over all road conditions and the seats are much more comfortable too.

[1807mick]

Im a new member looking to buy a replacement for an S type, wanted a an XF but have read every word (almost) written on the firm ride etc. This definately a deal breaker for me so I wondered if anyone.

Thanks for that I sort of agree but s types wont last much longer.

[Old Peter]

Hi Mick,

The ride on all cars depends a lot on the suspension and the wheel size.

There is a strong body of opinion that the smaller wheel option gives a more comfortable ride.

Going up to the Lake District 6 weeks ago an E Type Jaguar passed me,  It was driven quite quickly and very well. That model went out quite a long time ago, but is still on the road, and a good model will cost £100,000 plus.

The XK  ceased production in 2014 and there are plenty on the road and will be a future classic.

Both the X Type and the S Type are the cars that brought Jaguar cars within the reach of a lot more drivers and could well be described as the cars that kept Jaguar as a well known marque.

While there are drivers who are prepared to look after their cars and enthusiastic enough to restore some on the older models and keep them on the road no car could not be described as "won't last much longer", in my opinion.

I think that the S type is a future classic with the 3.0 litre petrol and the 2.7 diesel engines capable of doing rather big mileages.

Regards,

Peter.

[DWilson]

I had a long saga with mine - discovered that the 17in wheels were noticeably better than the 18 (or 19 or 20!) versions, but the ride quality was very sensitive to tyre pressures.  However....   when I put winter tyres on it (Michelin PA4 Alpin) the ride was transformed.  Felt much less "jiggly"  without obviously affecting the handling....

Sadly, the minor electrical gremlins and rubbish satnav (very slow to respond, with a mind of its own about where it tried to send me) drove me to screaming at it, so the car went...  Broke the prejudices of a lifetime and traded it in for a BMW 330D, which is just seamless.  Nowhere near as pretty though - and people don't let me out of junctions!  Goodbye Jaguar....

[1807mick]

Hi peter, of course your right its just that I need a replacement with lower milage and hopefully less other issues which ocurr more and more with age. Maybe I'll store it, nerver thought about that.

[1807mick]

Hi David, yes I'll keep wheel size in mind and I can echo your thoughts on the sat nav, I thought it was just mine that was weird.

[Old Peter]

11 hours ago, 1807mick said:

Hi peter, of course your right its just that I need a replacement with lower milage and hopefully less other issues which ocurr more and more with age. Maybe I'll store it, nerver thought about that.

Hi Mick, 

Mileage can be a big issue, although a well looked after car with a higher mileage and good servicing throughout its life can be a good buy.

I have always bought cars from a main dealer as you get a warranty and you can also find out what the previous owners were like.  A good indication is often where the owner lives.

The first owner of my car lived in Cornwall, but had his car serviced in London, which indicated that he/she probably worked in London, and lived in Cornwall and made sure that his car was well looked after.  The second owner was actually a Jaguar Main Dealer who replaced the engine before selling it on three months after taking it in as part exchange.  It was sold to a gentleman who lived in the Cotswolds, where it was serviced by a Main Dealer. When I bought it I got a good warranty and a car without any issues, and an engine that had only done 21k miles.

Regards,

Peter.

[Chrisf15]

Sorry I must be missing something with this why do you lose the handling capabilities by increasing the size of wheel and tyre??

Also I can't understand why somebody would buy an "s" spec car and then put on softer springs. 

[obrien58]

I have just succumbed to buying the XF having been a S type diesel owner for some time now and been very reluctant to change.   I saw a silver XF Luxury diesel advertised at a very reasonable price and took the plunge, my sad S type still sitting in my drive but relegated to parked at the back waiting for me to advertise it for sale.

My first impressions of the XF are not good at all and I nearly jumped back in the S type but can't because it is now not insured.

Faults:

1/  The bouncy castle effect over local roads, I cannot believe how it hit's  a bump and then seems to want to reproduce it  until it hits the next one . Would the Spires kit mentioned on here cure that and is it very expensive ?

2/  Whilst I realised there was no gear lever/selector before I purchased I did not realise how boring this would be with the knob change, which incidently can be very dangerous and costly if you don't take care coming out of sport mode if done too  fast.    I very nearly went into reverse managed to stop just in time .

3/ Only had the vehicle a week and got DPF full warning on dash, having read about  what this means on here and  Google  making me look at my S type even more with desire as in 8 years never had this warning at all.

So all in all not a very happy Jaguar driver at the moment any help / advice  gladly accepted and appreciated.

Regards

 

[SimonKD]

I gave my S Type to my partner (sneaky so I can still drive it) and bought a Mercedes E class with the soft ride option and balloon tyres. Nothing like the fun of the 'S' but oh so comfortable. Being 6'2" and broad backed I always struggled with the S Type seats. The seats are about the only improvement on the XF otherwise Jag have lost the plot. The Jag dealer always loans me one when the S is in for a service but it does not appeal for the reasons you mentioned. I hope they can get it sorted. Good luck.